Nepotism, Racism, and Fairness

As a California employment lawyer, I've represented people of all races--Caucasians, Africans, African-Americans, Asians, Southeast Asians, etc. After eight years of litigation, I am realizing that most employment issues revolve around a lack of communication. Usually, problems begin when the boss doesn't explain tasks properly or clearly; the employee fails to adapt to a personnel change or new methods; or the employer fails to correctly identify or reward the hardest working employees.

Overall, some of the most difficult cases I've seen involve promotions, especially government promotions. One "hot" current legal battleground is challenging the methods used to test into a particular job, such as a police officer or firefighter.

In San Jose, CA, the police department promotes officers based on several factors, including diversity. After a series of interviews and questions, the SJPD will draft a list of the top applicants and then choose from any of the top ten finalists, regardless of their actual placement. In other words, placing first does not necessarily give someone an advantage over the tenth place applicant. In practice, this "Rule of 10" allows the SJPD to promote based on various subjective factors, including friendships, peer reviews, personal relationships, diversity, etc. Other Bay Area police departments do not utilize the "Rule of 10" but still have diverse police forces; even so, most people would agree that the "Rule of 10" has increased racial diversity with the SJPD. Two questions come to mind: 1) "What about the people getting passed over on the promotion list when the SJPD reaches down and selects a lower-ranked applicant based on subjective factors?" and 2) How do we ensure that taxpayers receive the best employees based on merit, not nepotism?

Prior to answering the above questions, we should consider three interesting background issues. First, some people believe that diversity in hiring and promoting is important because local residents pay taxes and therefore deserve at least some commensurate ethnic representation in local agencies. Having an all-white police force in Oakland, CA or an all-black police force in Newport Beach, CA may appear problematic for various reasons and may weaken the credibility of the agency.

Second, most recent court cases involving promotions and testing deal with public safety officers. This development is not surprising. The cost of a police officer or firefighter has increased exponentially over the past decade due to positive sentiment post-9/11, as well as aggressive unionization. Today, a police officer hired in San Jose has won a lottery ticket. Over the course of his or her career, s/he stands to make millions of dollars in salary and benefits, including unique benefits such as job security, lifetime medical care for the entire family, and a pension of up to 90% pay. It is no wonder that public safety positions are much sought after. However, the more expensive a position, the fewer positions taxpayers can afford, which increases competition.

Hence, the third issue is basic economics: the more expensive you make something, whether it's emeralds, gold, or cops, the more likely it will be scarce. (This is a variation of the usual economics rule that there is an inverse relationship between price and supply.) Thus, as public safety positions become more expensive and more demanding, the number of available positions decreases, which increases competition. (As prices goes up, supply goes down, which increases demand and therefore competition.) Consequently, agencies must formulate tests to weed out some applicants, even deserving ones. Furthermore, although residents often want more officers, they may not be able to afford them in a time when training and hiring an officer has become a multi-million-dollar proposition. In some cities, such as Campbell, California, over half of the entire budget goes to the police and fire departments, much of it to retirees who no longer provide any services to local residents. [See here for more (page 8).] The lesson: price and scarcity are related, and the more expensive you make something, the less of it you can have.

Where does that leave us with respect to answering our two original questions? Stating one of them another way, "How does an agency create a fair test that doesn't slight a deserving person who is passed over?" I originally thought the test should be completely objective, like a multiple choice quiz. But then I realized that many government employees, especially officers, have to deal with the public, which requires social skills and anger management skills, which are difficult to measure in a purely objective test.

Yet, the minute we accept that hiring will be based on some subjective factors, how do we agree on the particular subjective factors to be used? After all, once we get to the top ten applicants in any widely-publicized position, most or all of them are probably capable of doing the job. How, then, do we determine which intangibles to use when it comes to selecting someone who has made the cut? Too often, I see nepotism being used in close calls. Someone golfs with someone else, or knows a mutual friend, etc. None of the aforementioned factors has anything to do with merit, such as an advanced degree, grades, or hours of training. At the same time, no law prevents nepotism, which forces spurned applicants to allege racism or some other element related to a protected class to get legal relief. Consequently, what should be a discussion about formulating a fair test becomes a supercharged discussion about race.

Even so, once we accept that subjective factors such as a person's demeanor, peer reviews, nepotism, or personal connections may be legally used to hire or promote someone, we open the door to other subjective factors, like diversity or race or gender. There's no way around it--one person's subjective factor is another person's public policy goal or another person's unfair reason. Realizing that we cannot use a purely objective test, how do we prevent a person being passed over from thinking that his race or gender caused him to lose the promotion or the job? How do we ensure that everyone is treated as an individual, regardless of his or her race or gender?

Fairness is the problem cities and counties face when hiring and promoting government employees, especially public safety officers. If taxpayers demand the best person for the job, what is the most fair way of making such an evaluation? What subjective factors may someone use during the testing process? Courts are ill-equipped to handle these questions, but applicants must continue to rely on allegations of racism or reverse racism to gain access to an impartial judge, and judges continue to rely on disparate impact numbers to overturn or approve testing procedures. Yet, the most important question of all--how do we make the most fair test?--continues to go unanswered, perhaps because the general public and our elected officials don't know enough about particular government jobs to demand that only certain factors be used. That means that government jobs have become the new cultural and racial playground, which is unfortunate for the applicants as well as taxpayers, who deserve better.

One solution is to make the entire promotion and hiring process transparent and public. We demand Supreme Court nominees go through a qualification process in public, but we allow local officials to hire employees behind closed doors. Yet, it is far more likely that a local police officer, firefighter, county counsel, etc. will have more of a direct impact on your life than a Supreme Court justice. The government hiring system currently lacks accountability because most employees are hired without any public scrutiny or public access to data.

On a lark, I once applied for a Social Security contact/service rep position. This job paid about $34,881 a year and required answering phone calls from people with questions about their statements, etc. The federal government told me that I was unqualified for this position--despite the fact that I've graduated law school and run my own law firm for several years, where I handled all phone calls personally.  I've applied for other government positions, and sometimes, I will get an email indicating I've made the initial cut. Unfortunately, that's all I usually get. Then, I won't receive anything else, not even a rejection letter or email. In one case, I actually received an interview, which required a written test beforehand. I ended up answering the test in a way that was correct but that exceeded the examiner's expected scope on one question. During the interview, my detailed answer appeared to embarrass the examiner in front of his peers, who realized the examiner had not considered other possibilities. The interviewer decided to use the interview to verbally joust with me. Predictably, I made the initial cut, but did not get the position. In another case, I applied for a job and never received anything indicating they had received my application. By the time I finally received a rejection notice, I learned that the agency had chosen its top candidates months ago.

The public and aspiring government employees deserve better. To make the system more fair, we should demand the government's testing and hiring process be open and exposed to public scrutiny. Otherwise, without some check on its power and discretion, the government will continue to mishandle taxpayer monies and weaken morale in existing and aspiring government employees. Over time, if our current nepotism-based hiring and promotion process continues, the government will lose credibility, and citizens may eventually lose faith in their country's representatives.

Are Teachers' Unions Bankrupting States?

How many non-government workers receive guaranteed pensions? Almost no one. Yet, teachers and other government employees have negotiated so many benefits for themselves, they are hurting future generations of students and teachers:

Although it is generally acknowledged that education is the foundation of every modern society’s future prosperity, schools unfortunately will have to compete with retirees for scarce dollars. This competition is uneven, because retirees have a legal claim on promised pension benefits that supersedes schools’ budgetary needs.

Basically, the more generous we become with pensions, the fewer benefits we can give current teachers and current students. For example, let's assume a state has 100 dollars in tax revenue. If it has to pay a retired teacher or police officer a pension almost equal to his or her regular salary, that's 90 to 100 dollars that the state can't use on hiring a new teacher or a new police officer. Or, as the report states, "Education finance is a zero-sum game: the more that is spent on closing pension funding gaps, the less there is to spend on reducing class size or improving instruction."

Note: "California, the most populous state, has the largest unfunded teacher pension liability: almost $100 billion." Yes, that's billion with a "b." See here for more.

Links for Interesting Reading

1. NYT, "Can States Fix Their Pension Problems?"

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/20/can-states-fix-their-pension-problems/

"Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger’s pension adviser, David Crane, recently told a state Senate hearing on pension reform, “One cannot both be a progressive and be opposed to pension reform. The math is irrefutable that the losers from excessive and unfunded pensions are precisely the programs progressive Democrats tend to applaud. Those programs are being driven out of existence by rising pension costs.”

2. 9th Circuit decision (Harper v. Poway, 445 F.3d 1166 (2005)) on academic free speech--no longer citable, but the dissent is worth reading:

http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/445/445.F3d.1166.html

Judge Kosinski: "Tolerance is a civic virtue, but not one practiced by all members of our society toward all others. This may be unfortunate, but it is a reality we must accept in a pluralistic society."

Judge Kosinski: "We are taught to take pride in who we are; it is, in a sense, the American way. It seems particularly chilling to free expression to restrain speech that expresses pride in one's own religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc."

"[The government] has no such authority to license one side of a debate to fight freestyle, while requiring the other to follow Marquis of Queensberry rules." -- See R.A.V. v. City of Saint Paul, 505 U.S. 377, 392 (1992)

Note: the picture above is of Judge Kosinski and I.  

Richard Wolff: "Capitalism Hits the Fan"

Richard Wolff, on Capitalism:

I don’t know about you, but I must get two to three solicitations for credit cards a week in the mail--none of which I request. It’s so profitable to push debt on the American people that everybody does it. It is a society out of control. It is a profit bonanza looking for more ways to make money. And the financial sector on Wall Street responded to this situation. It didn’t create it. It got its hands on the money and found new ways to lend new people new loans at high interest rates.

More here. Mr. Wolff seems to blame computers for declining wages, but he fails to mention the new jobs that new technology has created. The real issue isn't computers or technology, but the increasing wage gap between college-educated people and non-college-educated people. As the costs of a college education and graduate school increase, this troubling gap may continue.

Where I Feel Slightly Less Guilty

Many months ago, Patrick Kelley of the Pagan Temple blog and I debated about the Swiss ban on minarets. I made a sarcastic comment about his ideas sounding great in their original German, and since then, I've been wondering if I was too harsh. Well, I just saw him make the following comment on Popehat.com (May 17, 2010 @1:16 pm):

I have to admit I’m not a big fan of the current pc buzzwords, like tolerance, diversity, equality, open-mindedness etc., and I’m fine with those so-called “American qualities” going the way of the Dodo bird.

Okay, I can understand bashing ambiguous words like "diversity" and impossible goals like "equality," but being against tolerance and open-mindedness? Really?

And don't forget this gem, written on his website on May 17, 2010:

Speaking personally, and honestly, I don't trust any Muslim any further than I could throw one, and I certainly don't trust them nearly as far as I would dearly love to throw a good damn many of them.

Oh, the idiocy.

Update: the U.S. has ordered a hit on U.S. citizen and preacher Anwar Al-Awlaki. Al-Awlaki has influenced some of the recent terrorists who have attempted to attack the United States. Al-Awlaki uses anti-Muslim statements to motivate would-be jihadists worldwide:

You will find statements made by religious leaders for example, in the U.S., Franklin Graham who is the son of Billy Graham - one of the most well known evangelists in the US - making statements like ‘Islam is the religion of evil’. You have Pat Robertson saying that the Muslims are Ya’juj and Ma’juj. Statements like this are on the rise; they are not decreasing, they are rising.

Words have power, especially antagonistic words. Think about it: when a coach wants to pump up his team for an important game, one of the best motivational tools is the opposing coach's or team's trash-talk. Like it or not, when Americans publicly make negative statements about Islam and Muslims, those words are used to motivate would-be terrorists.

Sage Words

David Edwards: "Once you realize that helping others is also helping yourself, the size of the overall problems becomes irrelevant. You're not a one-man or one-woman army out to save the whole world. You help simply because it does good and it feels good."

Debate on Rima Fakih

Rima Fakih, and American citizen from Michigan, recently won the Miss USA pageant. This wouldn't be a big deal, except she is Lebanese and from a Muslim family. Some Americans are protesting a Muslim winning a beauty pageant, alleging that her victory was politically-motivated. There has also been backlash from Muslims. I don't understand any of it. A beautiful woman won a beauty pageant. Who cares? Well, these people do, and there was a debate about whether Islam allows Muslims to enter beauty pageants. Technically, the Koran specifically requires women only to cover their bosoms and private parts in public, which all the beauty pageant contestants did. Unfortunately, many Muslims are confused about the minimum requirements of their own religion, which has created many problems worldwide. More below:

Z: these contests don't have anything to do with our faith. There's nothing Islamic about what she's representing. I'm just saying, why don't we provide Muslim women professors with an opportunity to be crowned so we avoid the same misrepresentation of Muslim women in the media? Why do men applaud women who reveal their bodies and then pray 5x a day?

M: I don't view Islam as an "either/or" religion when it comes to beauty and educational pedigrees. Also, there is nothing in Islam that forbids the showing of physical beauty. To exhibit physical beauty, one must demonstrate one's physical form. Therefore, demonstrating one's form cannot be unIslamic b/c Islam is not against physical beauty.

You are questioning the degree of the demonstration, which is fine, but you've automatically lost credibility once you make a statement like, "There's nothing Islamic about what she's representing." Is she immodest? Perhaps. But since modesty is an ambiguous term and in the eye of the beholder, we must be more careful before we issue broad statements about what is Islamic or unIslamic. After all, Islam is not like the Catholic Church, where all Muslims must heed a particular interpretation coming from one source (i.e., the Vatican). As such, Muslims ought to recognize that no individual Muslim has authority over what is Islamic or unIslamic, and such debates must be settled by quoting the Koran, which is oftentimes ambiguous and open to interpretation.

Z: if the lines of modesty are ambiguous to you, it speaks volumes about your confusion of Islamic principles. I'm not comparing Islam to other faiths. I'm merely stating that its followers of the faith who are misrepresenting the religion and the media picks up on that. No one said physical beauty is a sin.

M: the Koran asks women to guard their "private parts" and their bosoms and then immediately references husbands and fathers. A hijab covers a woman's private parts and bosom--but so does a one-piece bikini.
The Koran also asks women to act modestly when outside the presence of their husbands or fathers; however, one husband or father may view a bikini as immodest, while another may have no issue with it. Therefore, the Koran seems to be asking women to take actions to minimize jealousy in their husbands and maximize harmony in their families, which requires a case-by-case analysis of the "lines of modesty." I hope this makes sense. Also, note that Muslim-majority countries like Dubai, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Saudi Arabia have vastly different rules on modesty, which should tell you right away that there isn't any singular interpretation of the Koran's definition of modesty.

Z: as you know Muslims were known for their good character, honesty, and intellect which magnified the beauty of their physical state. This is not an issue of interpretations, the reason I brought this is up is because we need to be thoughtful in our approach about what we're supporting. I'm sure that there are many women who don't practice their faith but wear the hijab because of the rules of their government/families. In a country such as ours where there are no rules about what's immodest, shouldn't we harness the best of our faith and freedom and question the values set forth?

Ask how many of these pageant winners have stalkers and live in fear of their lives. Ask how many of these pageant participants have eating disorders. Ask how many of these pageant winners spend their wealth and time in combating the problems of the world long before they entered a pageant. I see this as further ridicule...it's definitely not praise. It's saying, "look how we can brainwash your women into thinking we accept them for their religion and beauty" or "this should make up for all the bombs we're dropping on the innocent people (in all the Muslim countries you didn't mention)."

M: Connecting categories like beauty and modesty to stalkers and bombs in one leap indicates a fantastic imagination. I don't know anyone who looks at Ms. Fakih and thinks that her award makes up for the death of innocent civilians, so to suggest such a connection is troubling. It's like referencing 9/11 every time a Muslim is stopped at the airport in 2010--it's a tenuous connection at best and ultimately fails to support a conclusion or argument.

F: your statement "there is nothing in Islam that forbids the physical showing of beauty" is true. A woman may ONLY expose herself to other women or to another maharam. This is in the Qu'ran, and not up for debate. Modesty may be an "ambiguous" term, but strutting around in a two piece in front of eight million people is not ambiguous at all. There really is no gray area here.

Also, for anyone to equate wearing a hijab to wearing a two-piece is absolutely illogical. Are you saying that God is ok with either apparel? Clearly the two are not similar. It is either this or that, but not both, because both are contradictions to one another, and we all know contradictions are illogical. Wearing a bikini and wearing a hijab are not the same, so they will not be looked upon the same in God's eyes.

In the Qu'ran, 24:31 says, "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty..." Come on now, we are being asked to lower our gaze!! This is such a modest and subtle gesture. From this you are concluding that it is ok to wear a two piece bikini? You are unsure whether wearing a bikini contradicts this aforementioned verse? what possible argument can someone have? Surely this is illogical right? Why would God put that in the finite book, and then be ok, with naked women on a stage. I-l-l-o-g-i-c-a-l.

33:59 goes on to say, “O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters AND the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them." Yes, draw cloaks around the body, to prevent from giving the woman a discernible shape. You know how girls like to wear things real tight these days?

Whatever Miss Fakih does is between her and her God. It doesn't bother me one bit she calls herself Muslim. It's all good, because the rules, and regulations are all there. We have Taliban and extremist blowing people to bits. A girl strutting her goods on stage is the least of our concerns.

But rules, will be rules. And right will always be different from wrong.

M: First, did you really just admit that "modesty" may be an ambiguous term and then in the next breath allege no "gray area"? (I hope you see the problem there.)

Second, there is no "contradiction" between a bikini and a hijab. Both are articles of clothing, and articles of clothing can't contradict anything. It's like saying that a t-shirt and a sweater contradict each other, which makes no sense.

Also, you use the word, "naked." Ms. Fakih was never naked. She covered her "bosom" and her private parts--the only two areas of the body specifically cited in the verses at issue--so she complies with the Koranic sections that are most specific on modesty.

Since there is no singular authority on Koranic interpretation, all you can say is that your own interpretation of Islam forbids wearing a bikini in public--that's it. You cannot demand only one interpretation for an ambiguous term--this isn't like eating pork or drinking alcohol, which are clearly prohibited in the Koran.

Your other Koranic quotations are also open to interpretation. As I am sure you agree, almost every single Koranic section that discusses modesty and dress does so within the context of family members and husbands, so a reasonable interpretation cannot ignore the variable opinions of a woman's family. Why specifically include husbands and family members in the modesty verses if their opinions--which may vary greatly--are insignificant?

You also take the "cloak" verse out of context. First, a cloak refers to an outer garment that was popular in that time--it doesn't necessarily mean an actual cloak, just an outer garment. Second, take a closer look at the verses. It is discussing a time when women travel abroad or into lands where they will not be recognized as Muslims and may encounter problems with disrespectful men. Within context, the "cloak" verses appear to suggest simple, inexpensive ways for women to feel respected when they travel, i.e., to "be recognized and not harassed" and "not given trouble." There is nothing in the verses that requires women to wear particular outer garments when they travel. The verses merely encourage a woman to identify herself as a Muslim when she travels to foreign lands so she can avoid being bothered by disrespectful men. Such identification may be done in several ways, such as wearing a symbol of Islam (similar to wearing a cross if one is Christian). Of course I do not claim my interpretation is the only interpretation, but I do try to read verses in context.

F: So since there is no singular authority on the interpretation of the Qu'ran, you in your heart believe that it is acceptable from women in Islam to wear bikini's in public? You, with all your given faculty believe, that this is the message that God was striving to send to us? Just because the concept of female clothing is vague and open to a variety of interpretations, does not include the possibility that wearing such a thing in public is correct.

I was not sure what you were trying to say regarding the husband and father. All I was trying to say that a woman's clothing maybe more lax in front of maharam.

As for the cloak/garment verse 33:59, it says that women should cover them selves with this cloak (or garment) to avoid being harassed by men. All other things equal, who do you think has a higher probability of being harassed, a covered woman or one in a bikini? I think the latter. Basically this verse is trying to avoid having the woman attract unnecessary attention. Correct? Women should be clothed in ways that do not attract men's attention. Regardless if they are traveling, not traveling, are in the market, or anywhere in the public.

I'm going to revert back to 24:31. You say that a woman who covers her vitals, as a two piece does, is meeting the minimum requirements. Correct? Then how come this verse talks about a very subtle gesture, that is the lowering of the gaze. Can you compare the lowering of the gaze to wearing a bikini? Are these not on the opposite sides of the spectrum? Are these not contradictory. The Qu'ran advocates the woman should humbly lower her gaze, while you are saying that a woman in a bikini is not trespassing any rule. Can you please reconcile this blatant disparity?

24:31 also has an interesting thing that it mentions. It says for the woman to " not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment." Looks like to me that holy God is talking about another sense in addition to sight.....hearing. This is the extent to which women in Islam are instructed to behave. That they shouldn't even walk with a heavy foot. So again, when the bikini wearing in public is factored, how do you reconcile this disparity?

You know what the sweet thing about Islam is? It cuts the problem off at the root. Drinking causes problems, so guess what, no drinking AT ALL. Drugs causes problems, guess what, no smoking weed AT ALL. Stealing causes problems, guess what, no stealing AT ALL. Even a dollar. If everyone was allowed to drink "a little bit", or smoke weed "once in a while" then the entire system would crumble. There would always be one guy who drank too much and plowed his car into a group of kids, or a guy who fried his brain over drugs.

Islam, quite candidly is a religion of limits.

M: this will be my last response to you, b/c I've already studied this issue in detail and have explained most of my position. As I said before, in my heart, I believe Islam is not rigid--the different Islamic cultures across the world prove it--and we cannot ignore the varied opinions of family members when interpreting the modesty verses. Such verses almost always refer to women's "husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, their brothers or their brother's sons, or their sister's sons." These references are consistent and numerous, indicating that the intent of the modesty rules is to promote marital and familial harmony. Each father and husband has different preferences, so a bikini may make one husband jealous while another man may not mind. The only rule we know for sure is that women ought to cover their "bosoms" and "private parts"--anything beyond that is subject to interpretation.

You don't really offer anything new in your latest response. "Lowering the gaze" means women shouldn't look at forbidden things, just like men shouldn't be looking at forbidden things. The "gaze" verse talks about self-restraint, but each individual has unique boundaries. One woman may not be able to handle looking at a man's ankles, while another may be able to look at Fabio and maintain self-restraint. Again, we are back to a case-by-case analysis.

The "stamping feet" verse warns against showing off "ornaments," i.e., expensive jewelry, not body parts. Indeed, near the same place that "ornaments" is used, the Koran specifically cites "bosom" and "private parts," so it appears we are referring to something other than physical areas. In conclusion, if you think Islam has limits, wonderful--you can set up a mosque and preach however you like, but the minute you argue that Islam has only one way or one interpretation, you have crossed into Catholicism or some other religion.

Z: In reference to verse 24:31 about a woman to " not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment." It is not only referring to jewelry worn around ankles that make sounds to attract a man's attention, but as a woman, it's also referring to the movement of the chest as one walks. God created us all in the best of forms and provided us beauty as well as intellect. Our ancestors were known for their character because of how they used their intellect and that in itself magnified their physical attributes.

Clearly Ms. Fakih possess physical beauty, and no one is arguing that...but I just wish to learn more about her intellect. She has great potential to be a positive role model and I pray she gains the strength to overcome the whirlwind of the life she's chosen.

Would you congratulate your sister, mother, aunt, cousin, wife or daughter if any of them were following Ms. Fakih's lead?

M: if a woman in my family decided to participate in a beauty contest, the appropriate discussion would take place privately. I don't see anything in the Koran that requires a non-family member to judge another Muslim's modesty.

Generally speaking, in Islam, both the wife and the husband are tied together--or yoked together--and both must avoid harmful and immodest behavior. The definition of immodest behavior is based on input from both the husband and the wife. The wife can ask her husband to dress conservatively if such dress conforms to her definition of modesty, and vice-versa. This is why it is important to know the expectations of the person you are marrying. The intent of the modesty rules is to avoid jealousy on both sides, which helps promote a peaceful marriage.

So if you really look at the Koran in context, the intent of the modesty rules is, "Don't tick off your spouse." Thus, outside the house, the wife gets to ask the husband to dress in ways that make her feel comfortable, and the husband gets to ask his wife to dress in ways that make him comfortable. Such preferences are expressed in most marriages anyway, e.g., the wife buys the husband new clothes, throws away old shirts, lays out what she wants him to wear, etc. I've heard Christian husbands refuse to go out if the wife is wearing something too risque, and Christian dads complain about their daughters' clothing, so this issue isn't an "Islamic thing."

The Koran anticipates these marital and familial problems and tries to fix them ahead of time. In real life, women tend to become the focus of clothing/modesty discussions b/c most women are attracted to men who dress up, not down, but the opposite is true for women. At the end of the day, if you marry someone reasonable, modesty and clothing preferences won't be an issue.